Late Night Cocoa (019): WWDC Round Table

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In Episode 19 we discuss WWDC with four top developers Daniel Jalkut, Gus Mueller, Wil Shipley and Guy English.

Subjects covered include:

  • Is the WWDC Keynote relevant to developers anymore
  • Quicklook
  • 64 bit
  • Safari for Windows
  • iPhone SDK (lack of)
  • The future



Guest Links
Red Sweater Software (Daniel)
Daniel Jalkut (Blog)

Flying Meat Software (Gus)
Gus Mueller (Blog)

Delicious Monster (Wil)
Wil Shipley (Blog)

Rouge Amoeba (Guy)
Guy English (Blog)

Yahoo Groups
Mac Gui Dev
Mac Small Business



Just wanted to say thanks for the podcast, I am finding it very interesting and a little bit of an additional drive to keep going with Cocoa. I am a recent (7 months) switcher and ex software developer (now stay at home dad) who is learning Cocoa & Obj-C in my limited spare time.

Oh yeah, nice to hear a Brit doing a podcast, esp as I am an ex-pat in Germany :)


O Brother, Where Art Thou?

Loved the show, but am now finding myself in severe withdrawal. O brother, where art thou?

Humbly, Ylan

Its on its way

I've been on vacation the show should be out in a couple of days... I'm still trying to work out how two weeks disappears so fast :-)


For those interested, I have added an entry in my blog regarding my (short) experience with ObjectiveC++.

You can find it here:

Let me know what you think.


Carbon, Cocoa, JavaScript and 64 Bit

I think it's delicious how you laugh about the poor Carbon devs who don't want to learn Objective-C, but then complain that you have to learn JavaScript to develop for the iPhone. Get with the program! Cocoa is out, JS/Ajax/HTML/CSS is in! :-P

Seriously, I doubt Carbon 64 is going anywhere. It'll appear. There's a simple reason: Photoshop.

Reply to Vermeer (C++ and Cocoa mixing)

Vermeer, as someone making the transition from a C++, Carbon base to Cocoa, I'd like to hear some of your experiences. Mind dropping me a line?

Spamsafe way:



business model

Another very interesting episode. LNC has already proven its value, but not yet that its financially viable from your point of view, I guess. Since I would hate to see it go away, I would like to suggest that you go commercial. Produce 30 episodes from September to May, and take a long summer break. Charge $50 for an annual subscription. Whenever an episode is 12 months old, release to the public domain to serve as an appetizer along with the episodes already publicly available. Multiply $50 with the expected number of listeners and calculate if it will pay the ca two months of salary that it should in order to produce the 30 episodes. If you judge that it would work, then do it.

Best regards,


P.S. Remember in the next episode to ask Allan Odgaard, a Ruby expert, if and why it matters that Ruby becomes more tightly integrated in Cocoa.

Add Your Thoughts

I would love other peoples thoughts on this suggestion


Thanks for the Suggestion

Thanks for the suggestion, I am considering what business model to use as I would like to put even more time into LNC so I will add your thoughts to the list I am considering.

The the Allan Odgaard interview was actually record before WWDC but delayed to allow the WWDC round table to released soon after WWDC so the questions have already been asked.


safari for windows

i am surprised you guys didn't discussed how safari was developed for windows. Is this under NDA? Did they port some cocoa libraries to windows (has apple been developing yellow box on windows?)

Objective C++


Great podcast! I hope you do more of these roundtables in the future. Great to see that Cocoa developpers are human beings, not faceless corporations ;)

I've been developpeing Dos/Windows applications for years and last month, I finally ported most of my code over to the Mac. Because I do 3D/2D graphic stuff, most of my code is for OpenGL, which is supported by all platforms. I do not use Carbon at all. Instead, I put my Cocoa/ObjectiveC code in .mm files under XCode.

So far it works awesomely: there are many ways to mix C++ with Objective C under the new GNU compiler. It's not harder than mixing standard C and C++ in the same in Windows/Linux. I wish that Apple would focus a bit more on that approach so they could phase out Carbon. Many people, like myself, have to be cross-platform (C++), yet love the elegence of Objective-C for UI and OS-X inegration.

Also, few people know that you can run Objective-C on Windows as well. Unfortunately, you have to do some back flips using MinGW ( and CygWin (, but it works. If Objective-C was better supported on Windows, this would totally kill the C#/Visual Basic for rapid development.

My 2 cents


Killing 64-bit Carbon and its effects

I'm surprised nobody mentioned that Apple said in the WWDC 2006 keynote that there'd be 64-bit Carbon in Leopard (with some caveats). Then less than a year later, it's 64-bit Cocoa UI only. This kind of flip-flopping was once common but it hasn't happened much if at all since OS X came out.

I'd be willing to bet there's far more Carbon code in use than Cocoa. It's not just Microsoft, Adobe and even some of Apple's major apps, but entire cross-platform UI toolkits like wxWindows, SWT, Tk and Qt, or various in-house toolkits, hacked-up versions of PowerPlant and even TCL (is Toast still using it?). Sure, a lot of the apps using these toolkits look like bad Windows ports, but many are also the only Mac apps available in their respective areas.

It's especially egregious to say "oh, btw, there's no future for Carbon" when some are just coming off a transition to modern Carbon and OS X technologies like HIView, compositing windows, Unicode, Mach-O, etc.—or even moving from CodeWarrior to Xcode. The hardest-hit, I think, will be vertical-market, open source and academic-developed apps (especially scientific visualization and number-crunching apps which can benefit from 64-bit in the near term) where the developers have enough trouble just keeping up with everything else without having to rewrite all their UI code. Some subset will likely just drop OS X and go to Linux or Windows rather than port to Cocoa - at least virtualization makes this easier, I guess...

I haven't done any significant Carbon UI development since OS X came out (and certainly acknowledge how much easier Cocoa makes things), but it really seems strange how little it seems people both inside and outside Apple are considering the huge effort required to port and test code for essentially no user benefit. Wil Shipley's game example is disingenuous because games contain the least platform-specific UI code of any category.

You mentioned a couple

You mentioned a couple mailing lists in this podcast. Cocoa GUI and Cocoa SB maybe if I remember correct? Can't remember for sure. Do you have links for where to join them?

Yahoo Groups

Thanks Scotty!

Thanks Scotty!

Why Apple invested in Safari for Windows...

I think a lot of people have misconstrued Apple's intentions regarding Safari on Windows. I don't believe it has anything to do with competing browsers or letting Mac users feel more at home when stuck on Windows... It has largely to do with why Apple wrote iTunes for Windows. Both the iPod and now the iPhone is a market for both Mac and Windows users.

Establishing Safari on Windows let's Windows users create iPhone webapps in the same environment they will be deploying to. It makes no sense to develop a web app in Firefox or IE and then deploy to Safari on the iPhone.

Much like ITMS on both platforms appeals to a broader audience, so does Safari on both platforms... In fact this broad customer base with the buzz of Web 2.0 I'm sure is what Apple is investing in to produce a large sweeping 3rd party content base to support the iPhone.

Given the above, I have my doubts there will ever be a SDK and I'm sure Steve was hoping people would settle with Javascript being a good enough interface so that they can scoop up the much larger Windows customer base with matched capabilities.

Of course this is all opinion, but it makes the most sense to me given why Apple invested in developing Safari on Windows.

64 Bit Carbon and Multiplatform Codebases

While I understand where you all are coming from, I think the point that many multi-platform programmers make that are interested in 64 bit (e.g. modo) is that it's a lot easier sharing your codebase with other toolkits when using Carbon on the Mac side...

IT angle

Great discussion of WWDC. I didn't make it this year, but I did go in 2005 and 2006. My impression of those conferences was that it was getting more sysadmin-oriented, with an increase in the number of IT/Enterprise sessions, and many of the 1,000 additional attendees being interested in those sessions; certainly I noticed I was talking to more sysadmins/IT managers in the corridors and sofa areas in 2006. Anyone have any opinion on whether this angle is continuing in the 2007 conference? Is it time for a WWITAC yet? ;-)

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